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Post by cellerikun on Dec 2, 2006 18:45:34 GMT -5
I think the controversy wasn't so much the revealing outfits (they weren't), it's more the vaguely pedophiliac veneer everything seems to have. Diana in particular; when she curtsies, her skirt goes up way higher than is strictly necessary, she sucks on (bites?) Meg's fingertip in the opening (at least, I thought it was Meg's..) and the little girls gazing into each other's eyes and looking like they're about to kiss. The whole thing screams "fetish", if you ask me.
That, and pretty much every relationship in the game is illicit or unhealthy in some way.
Jennifer x Wendy - Gender issues, homosexuality Meg x Diana - Codependency, domestic abuse, homosexuality Hoffman x Clara - Heavily implied sexual abuse Hoffman x Diana - Implied sexual abuse, possible physical abuse RCA - Passive-aggressive disorders, abuse, dominance issues Adults x Children - verbal abuse, abandonment issues, insecurities all around
The list goes on..
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Post by empressjess on Dec 2, 2006 18:54:52 GMT -5
I stand corrected, then. Thought it was just kind of ironic in an unintentional type of way.
Haha, way to bring up the passive-aggressive-ness of the RCA; it's not readily apparent, but it is true.
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jackdyce
Poor
Everlasting Happiness is a Joke
Posts: 163
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Post by jackdyce on Dec 2, 2006 22:08:13 GMT -5
Resident Evil 4 was one of the most fun games I ever played. Yeah it strayed from the series origins, but I personally didn't mind that.
But back on topic... Someone on GameFAQS pointed out that there were only nine ribbons the player could collect; one for each girl at the orphanage (Diana, Eleanor, Jennifer, Amanda, Wendy, Meg, Clara, Olivia, and Susan).
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Post by fireflyprince on Dec 2, 2006 22:19:12 GMT -5
cellerikun, I'm afraid I fail to see why homosexuality is unhealthy.
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Post by julia on Dec 3, 2006 2:41:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't consider Jennifer and Wendy gay. Just a messed up friendship.
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Post by spookythings on Dec 3, 2006 4:06:51 GMT -5
i don't believe cellerikun meant homosexuality itself was unhealthy (at least i hope not), but that the relationships between the children, which happened to be homosexual, were strange and unhealthy.
i'm not sure whether or not i view wendy and jennifer as homosexual - i can't speak from experience because i never had any friends, but i think that girl-on-girl experimenting is fairly common. however, wendy and jennifer, brought together by unique circumstances, might have developed a deeper bond which lead to something more than just 'practicing.' had wendy not been deranged and controlling, she and jennifer may have carried out their relationship well into their teens or even adulthood, because they didn't seem to have any real concept or examples of heterosexuality, outside of (possibly) clara and hoffman.
someone here described their relationship as 'tentative steps torwards imperfect, intense love.' i think that sums it up beautifully.
ON TOPIC: loooooove the theory on diana resenting clara. i wish we could have seen more interaction between them. maybe a fanfic someday...
i also liked the explanation of why wendy was drawing a fish at the end. i never really even noticed that she was drawing - i mean i saw it, but i didn't absorb it.
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Post by cellerikun on Dec 3, 2006 4:07:03 GMT -5
cellerikun, I'm afraid I fail to see why homosexuality is unhealthy. It's indicative, I think, if one ignores the word "illicit" and zeroes in immediately on "unhealthy" when homosexuality is mentioned. Illicit: il·lic·it [i-lis-it] adj. 1. not legally permitted or authorized; unlicensed; unlawful. 2. disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons.I used both words in relation to the entire list because some of those things might be considered unhealthy, but not illicit (codependency, for instance), and others might be considered illicit, but not unhealthy (like passive-aggressive behaviors being an undesirable, but normal, staple of female childhood development). Homosexuality between preadolescent girls, as I intended it here, falls under the latter category. However, I'm glad to see there are still champions of civil rights ready to lay the smack down with thinly-veiled accusations of bigotry whenever the opinion arises that homosexuality might not be the best thing ever, even if no one actually expresses that opinion. ... INTERNET: SERIOUS BUSINESS
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 3, 2006 9:19:49 GMT -5
I mourn the death of puzzles greatly as well ;_; You know what really struck me about Rule of Rose? The whole big controversy about sexuality, and everyone's dressed much more conservatively than in other games. Ok, yes, children, but the kids have on clothes that cover them; even Diana's low-cut neckline is made up in her long skirt. And Jennifer, who's old enough for "The Gaze" (sexualization in a vouyeristic sense) has on this almost frumpy gray/green number as the official outfit. Hey I liked Jen's dress!! It's the same color as my new car!! As for the unhealthy homosexual relationship, that's true. In case you didn't notice, this did happen in the 1930's. Homosexuality WAS unhealthy back then. Still is depending on your view. And that's not a bad thing if you do, just don't slam it in someone's face (by the way, just to be fair, be it the stereotypical 'liberal' or 'conservative,' both are intolerant people). (You can see I like to take both sides of things) There are some pretty unhealthy relationships in RoR, Wendy's infatuation with Jen for one (THAT had some pretty unhealthy outcomes, and I think I can find a consensus on this one). As for a green ribbon being a power symbol, I don't see that. I don't see green ever as a power symbol (I think Jen's red brooch is a symbol of power/status with the princess). Green is usually a passive/calm color. And Diana's ribbon is more yellow isn't it (see RoR forum pic)? The green ribbons might have just been gifts from Jen (she's the only one with green, a nice way to mark it's her) since she does give them as gifts to the box; she doesn't bestow them to each child. Otherwise, I'll buy cellerikun's other theories (I just notice when I say I'll buy it doesn't sound convincing but that's just how I speak/type)
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Post by empressjess on Dec 3, 2006 12:12:34 GMT -5
Hey I liked Jen's dress!! It's the same color as my new car!! As for the unhealthy homosexual relationship, that's true. In case you didn't notice, this did happen in the 1930's. Homosexuality WAS unhealthy back then. Still is depending on your view. And that's not a bad thing if you do, just don't slam it in someone's face (by the way, just to be fair, be it the stereotypical 'liberal' or 'conservative,' both are intolerant people). (You can see I like to take both sides of things) There are some pretty unhealthy relationships in RoR, Wendy's infatuation with Jen for one (THAT had some pretty unhealthy outcomes, and I think I can find a consensus on this one). All hail the Jenny mobile! Is it filled with a lighter than air gas, by any chance? And yes, people normally don't like to include me in political conversations because I'm so staunchly moderate. I guessed right about what cellerikun meant there: that homosexual relationships were considered wrong in the 1930's, just like women having a limited number of career choices. Speaking of alternate costumes by the way, the nurse one makes me think of Clara, and perhaps could be viewed as a connection to the single (possibly) still living orphan besides Jennifer. Though I'm sure they didn't intend that, if my one English course this semester taught me anything, that shouldn't be considered anyway.
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Post by cellerikun on Dec 3, 2006 14:43:04 GMT -5
I always saw the Green Ribbon as being a power symbol, in part because it's Jennifer's color, since she at one point was Joshua and thereafter the Bear Prince; also, because it's her memories, she has absolute power. It's just that because she's trudging through all these horrible memories that she's blocked over time, it's difficult for her-- but she still does it.
Think about it-- she's the only one who carries a weapon and the only one who fights the imps when they come, though it's obvious that others have come in contact with them or the concept of them (Hoffman's scenes with them, Martha's scenes with them, they're mentioned in Meg's book). The Bear Prince (and therefore Jennifer) are the only two characters who really instigate change in the bizarre memories of the dream world-- Wendy forces Jennifer to read the storybooks that give her clues, Jennifer actively pursues the truth; everyone else in the context of the dream world is really just backdrop.
As for Diana's ribbon, I'm pretty sure it's green; I had to replay a couple of scenes to get a good look; in the forum pic, the lighting Diana is shown in is candlelight, and casts everything on her in bright yellow light and very dark shadows. That's why she's much less pale in that picture than in the game. In the game itself she tends to look pale, even sallow in some places.
Also, I didn't notice before, but I got a good look at her last night-- the mermaid's "tail" is comprised entirely of rope, and she has human feet (floppy, broken-looking feet, mind you) poking out of the bottom of the bindings. I'd thought before that she just had nasty red-brown scales.
I'm not sure what I think about the whole "bound by ropes" thing, since the game is mostly about Jennifer freeing herself... but then again, in the beginning, the scissors "say" it would be better to stay tied up than to be free to feel pain.. and she does feel an awful lot of pain. Maybe by lashing everything down (Hoffman, Mermaid!Clara, the Airship) she's preserving her memories, and therefore she won't forget again? And when she locks up Brown in the ending, is that a similar concept?
But then, why all the wreckage in the airship...? :\
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Post by empressjess on Dec 3, 2006 15:07:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm gonna go with green too. As for ropes, I get the feeling that Jennifer is always in this state of either chaos or drifting, and, like you said, binding it up helps her remember. However, at the same time ropes could also mean repression, since she's buried all these memories so deeply that she doesn't recognize key people like Wendy and Brown when confronted with them again. Tying up Puppy!Brown at the end seems, to me, like she doesn't want him to escape or to feel pain; notice that the ropes aren't excessive or grotesque in this scene like in the ones with Clara and Hoffman.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 3, 2006 17:05:40 GMT -5
Hey I liked Jen's dress!! It's the same color as my new car!! As for the unhealthy homosexual relationship, that's true. In case you didn't notice, this did happen in the 1930's. Homosexuality WAS unhealthy back then. Still is depending on your view. And that's not a bad thing if you do, just don't slam it in someone's face (by the way, just to be fair, be it the stereotypical 'liberal' or 'conservative,' both are intolerant people). (You can see I like to take both sides of things) There are some pretty unhealthy relationships in RoR, Wendy's infatuation with Jen for one (THAT had some pretty unhealthy outcomes, and I think I can find a consensus on this one). All hail the Jenny mobile! Is it filled with a lighter than air gas, by any chance? My car's a PT Cruiser, so you can imagine people lighting up a Mary Jane or whatever in there. It might not actually fill with lighter than air gas, but you'll feel like it was. Heck, you'll feel like you're in the airship with Jen, hallucinating imps and all.
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Post by empressjess on Dec 3, 2006 18:11:17 GMT -5
I'm thinking if I wanted to hallucinate imps with Jenny, I'd go for a bad acid trip.
That's awesome about the car though, I'm so jealous!
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 3, 2006 18:42:59 GMT -5
Acid's too expensive. And I love the car. I was gonna get something cheaper, but my dad said he would match what I would pay so I got the Cruiser. Probably because he didn't get me a present for getting into med school.
As for the ending, I think its possible that seeing the happy Brown was a happy memory amiss all the bad ones. When Jen closed the door, it was her saying she is finally ready to close that chapter (the game) of her life and move on. Brown chasing her and getting caught might be one last attempt for the memory to come back. Jen smiles at the one happy (set) of memories she still retains, promises to protect it (her memory so she won't need to dream of those damned rabbit imps and mermaid!) and closes that chapter of her life. (Hmm, maybe I should put this in the Brown theory thread)
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Post by empressjess on Dec 3, 2006 19:48:05 GMT -5
Congrats on med school! I like the closing the book theory because it fits in with the game's structure quite well with the whole storybook metaphor thing. And suddenly we're back on topic. Delightful
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