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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 14:39:05 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Hoffman had Clara clean and took her to bed, just that he was doing anything sinister. Kids often tend to jump to conclusions, especially when they are scared. In the game, the scenes with Hoffman and Clara all look rather scary to even us, as they looked to Jennifer when she was a child. But in the "reflection" chapter, when she sees everything clearly, she reads in Hoffman's diary how things really were and seems to realize that she was wrong. Hoffman seemed from his diary to really care for Clara, and it just didn't sound to me like a lie. Also, I really can't see Clara offering to stay on two years ahead of time if she was being abused. That just would not make sense. She seems to have truly wanted to stay on.
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Stray Dog
Poor
" ... Stray Dog will have his Peas. "
Posts: 58
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Post by Stray Dog on Feb 28, 2007 18:09:37 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Hoffman had Clara clean and took her to bed, just that he was doing anything sinister. Kids often tend to jump to conclusions, especially when they are scared. In the game, the scenes with Hoffman and Clara all look rather scary to even us, as they looked to Jennifer when she was a child. But in the "reflection" chapter, when she sees everything clearly, she reads in Hoffman's diary how things really were and seems to realize that she was wrong. Hoffman seemed from his diary to really care for Clara, and it just didn't sound to me like a lie. Also, I really can't see Clara offering to stay on two years ahead of time if she was being abused. That just would not make sense. She seems to have truly wanted to stay on. Talkin' about the scene of the cleaning in the Sick Room, it's not the fact that this scene happened in reality that matters, but the WAY it happened, which I think can't be misunderstood. Reading Hoffman's diary it truly seems that Hoffman felt some kind of love for Clara, of course. I never denied it. What matters is WHICH kind of love are we talkin' about. In that diary there is absolutely nothing which could exclude the possibility of a deviated love; indeed, just the fact that he took her to bed is too much strange for the common idea of love (Or maybe, fatherly love). Come on, it could sound good if she was still a child ... but a 16 years old girl, accompanied to the bed by an old teacher (even with their particular relationship) ... would you really think about 'simple love' ? Besides, she seemed always afraid when she was with Hoffman. According to what Jennifer said, she should be 'scary when there are other adults near to her', not 'AFRAID of those adults'. In spite of this, we see her afraid in a lot of moments: 1. Normally, when she's with Hoffman in the Sick Bay on the Airship she seems really scared; also, the game refers to her as 'The Frightened Princess'. 2. She's afraid in 'The Mermaid Princess' Chapter, when Hoffman is taking her to 'bed'. 3. She seems VERY afraid in 'The Funeral' Chapter, when Hoffman intimate her to enter the Sick Room. She also stops one time before going on. You could, of course, think that all her behaviour is something Jennifer created within her mind, because the fact she was afraid would have no sense at all if my theory didn't work. But ... why the game developers would have chosen to show us a LOOOOT of things that can easily make us think he's actually a pedophile. It's not like in Gregory's question, all those images and particulars are too much for a child's conception, even if filled with the knowledge of an adult. Moreover, there's not still a solid base on which you can found the theory according to which Hoffman's not a pedophile: the diary could be as well a proof of his pedophilia, and Jennifer's comment about it obviously describes the terms of HER relationship with Hoffman ... a relationship based on fear and strictness. 'He seemed so scary', just because he was of course an adult, and represented for her in a certain way, the concept of 'Unknown Evil' (Because he belonged to another world, the Adult's world, and because he was always blaming her for everything that happened ... maybe because of the other children, or maybe not). I also wanted to correct myself about my theory according to which Clara felt a sort of deviated love for Hoffman: I think she would not be afraid of him, if it was so. In spite, I think she was simply too afraid to escape; she felt like morally imprisoned in the orphanage. She could escape, she could go away from that thing that seems like a nightmare to us, but for her was simply 'every day life'; but she never did, because she had not the moral strenght, nor the will. She went away only when she realized that she was 'free' without Hoffman. She took the occasion to abandon her living hell. Without this reason I think she did not even have another reason to leave the children all alone. Well, I think we could go on for a long time ... It's kinda useless. :°
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 18:19:14 GMT -5
But Jennifer did not say "HE seemed so scary back then.". After reading the entry where Mr. Hoffman carries Clara to bed, she says that "So that's all it was...it seemed so scary back then.". This highly seemed to suggest that she had merely let her imagination get the best of her. And she may be 16, but if she fell asleep while helping him tidy up, would it really be so unbelievable for him to carry her to bed? His diary seemed to stronly suggest he had a fatherly love of her.
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Stray Dog
Poor
" ... Stray Dog will have his Peas. "
Posts: 58
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Post by Stray Dog on Feb 28, 2007 18:37:06 GMT -5
But Jennifer did not say "HE seemed so scary back then.". After reading the entry where Mr. Hoffman carries Clara to bed, she says that "So that's all it was...it seemed so scary back then.". This highly seemed to suggest that she had merely let her imagination get the best of her. And she may be 16, but if she fell asleep while helping him tidy up, would it really be so unbelievable for him to carry her to bed? His diary seemed to stronly suggest he had a fatherly love of her. I'm afraid, but I have to correct you. In the first place, she comments saying "...... At the time, it seemed so frightening... Were those scary things that attacked me just figments of my imagination...?". I controlled it on my script. She says 'it' just because she was NOT refering to Hoffman or Clara, but to the rumours about the imps. In fact, reading the first page, we see: 2 March 1930 Recently, the children have been engaging in odd activities and spreading disturbing rumors--rumors about creatures that come after children who don't clean up and stray dogs that kidnap small tots... It's all very bizarre. She never said 'So that's all it was ...'. I think this fact excludes your theory. Moreover, I have to correct you another time. I quote: "In the wee hours of the morning, she was still working, so I gently took her to bed." She did not fell asleep. The word 'gently' is very .. disturbing. :°
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 18:40:44 GMT -5
Do you have a different version, because that's not how the diary dialogue foes in mine. She comments about the sweepers after reading the first part, then says what I said after reading the Clara part. PS. Don't forget to post in some other sections-we value your opinion^^ And how come you are ignoring the Cbox?
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Stray Dog
Poor
" ... Stray Dog will have his Peas. "
Posts: 58
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Post by Stray Dog on Feb 28, 2007 18:47:31 GMT -5
Do you have a different version, because that's not how the diary dialogue foes in mine. She comments about the sweepers after reading the first part, then says what I said after reading the Clara part. PS. Don't forget to post in some other sections-we value your opinion^^ And how come you are ignoring the Cbox? That's impossible ... I played the PAL version, and without any doubt there's no difference between the English PAL and the USA Release, at least in the translation. Besides, I found a game script which has the same sentences of my 'version'. Would you like to show me a screenshot ? If you're right, I'll have to review my opinion. P.S. Cbox ? :°
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 18:59:00 GMT -5
I have no way to take screenshots from my game, I'm afraid. I have the US version, though. I'll replay through that part again, but I just did earlier, and I'm pretty sure that's what it said.
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Stray Dog
Poor
" ... Stray Dog will have his Peas. "
Posts: 58
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Post by Stray Dog on Feb 28, 2007 19:02:36 GMT -5
I have no way to take screenshots from my game, I'm afraid. I have the US version, though. I'll replay through that part again, but I just did earlier, and I'm pretty sure that's what it said. Well, I'm waiting. Copy here the entire Hoffman's Diary, please. I've got to know. :°
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 19:11:24 GMT -5
While you wait, feel free to browse and post.^^
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Post by avidgamer77 on Feb 28, 2007 20:53:20 GMT -5
Stray Dog's theory on why Clara is leaving after Hoffman seems to make sense, because if she's willing to accept the duties she would have stayed on very long. Looks like she's freeing herself from the shackles of Hoffman's abuses and the place where she had "terrible experiences". Her quiet behaviour might also mean she's keeping everything to herself, even when she got abused. I would like to add what does Jennifer mean when she said Clara "looked like just another student at the orphanage... except when she spoke to Mr. Hoffman or Martha. Then, she looked scary. I wonder if I'll be like Clara when I'm older... Will I enjoy those days...?"
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 21:04:59 GMT -5
As I've stated, I think that when Jennifer says Clara looks scary she is referring to her looking "adult". Adults seem to scare Jennifer by this point. And when around the other adults, Clara acts like one, which scares her.
And who wouldn't leave the orphanage after the aristocrary took over completely?
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Post by Azure Princess on Feb 28, 2007 22:32:38 GMT -5
I would. LOL.
If you take it in the meaning that Hoffman had a fatherly love for Clara - then define what he had for Diana. It was clear that he obviously meant something suggestive by the way he touched her.
If your dad or someone who was really close to you started to touch you like that, wouldn't that mean something? I think for me, it usually means that they find you attractive physically - especially now when that kinda of touch is associated with lovers or boyfriend and girlfriend.
All adults scare children, especially at the age you know. Even more so when you're an orphan. I can only imagine that kids like that would be dead scared of adults because they'd be suffering from abandonement issues. ^^"
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Feb 28, 2007 22:35:50 GMT -5
The whole scene with Diana was the wierdest, and again, I think she jumped to conclusions. If misunderstood Clara cleaning and being carried to bned by Hoffman, think how badly she could understand a furious Mr. Hoffman scolding Diana.
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Post by Azure Princess on Feb 28, 2007 22:40:36 GMT -5
True.
I think it's plausible to say that, considering how messed up Jennifer's own memory was. ^^ The game developers just made it seem so suggestive.
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Post by avidgamer77 on Feb 28, 2007 22:49:30 GMT -5
Okay, so what Jennifer meant by "I wonder if I'll be like Clara when I'm older... Will I enjoy those days" could be that she won't enjoy the fun times she had with the other orphans if she wasn't a child, because if she were an adult she would be tasked with responsibilities that would be deemed very routine and dull.
Initially, the first time I played the game, I thought that sentence meant her indirectly referring to Hoffman's sexual advances towards the older children and whether she would be one of his victims.
It's kinda ironic Jennifer could dispel all the bad memories by locking them away in the attic and concentrate on the happy things that she shared with the same kids that humiliated/bullied her. But I guess she must have forgiven all of them for what they did, including Wendy.
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