Questions and Overview of the whole game*SPOILERS*

[neongen]

Hello, I`ve gone through the game several times and was shocked to see that, after refering to a walkthrough, the two endings I received were the only ones in the game. I'm going to list as many concerns as I remember and if posters here can help me out, I'd appreciate it. My concerns are in two areas: the gameplay and story. I`ve looked at various entries in both blogs, but have not found the answers to my questions or entries that are congruent with my views. Before I had to look at the walkthroughs, I thought that the game was a flawed masterpiece rivaled only by Koudelka and Parasite Eve. Now I see it as a mish-mosh of poor gameplay and an undecipherable story line. Maybe I can be helped to change my view. As I went through the game several times.

I was impressed by what I thought to be fantastic tie in between visual, verbal, and written clues that would eventually lead to getting the items necessary for a good ending. As it turned out, very few items and little understanding of the story/clues is necessary to compete the game with the "best" ending. I therefore find that the game cannot be rated.



Where do I start? Wendy. Wendy and Jennifer knew each other before the crash, as is written in The Little Princess book. It states that after the crash the Little Princess, that is, Wendy, disappeared. This seems to mean that Jennifer lived close to the orphanage and played with Wendy who was a resident there(can the Little Princess book information have any other meaning?). This would necessitate that Jennifer lost her memory after the crash, as she did after the orphanage murders, and seems not to make sense that Wendy would not tell Jennifer that they knew each other before and their relationship was unknown to others.

Everyone seems to accept that Wendy "rescued" Jennifer from Gregory and that J. then wound up at the orphanage, but what was Wendy's relationship to the goings on at the Gingebread House? Did the boy's clothes on the bed belong to Gregory's son, and why does Wendy wear them at times in the story? Wendy is depicted throughout the story as shy, even Amanda dumps on her, and her rabbit is sacrificed. And I can accept that Amanda steals the bear, which apparently signifies Wendy`s love of Jennifer, to "set up' Jennifer as the thief, but how could she be the club leader?

Now the Gingerbread House. Posters seem to believe that Gregory "rescued" J after the crash and took her to his house, where he kept her. Seems that Gregory had a son-Joshua-who died prior to the arrival of Jennifer. There is not any real hint of this having happened in the game-there is a calender on the wall with symbols on it, and the game states that Gregory did "save" J , but it also states that J "betrayed" him. HOW DID SHE BETRAY HIM?

I can accept that J went from the Gingerbread House to the orphanage(really an asylum), but what is the connection between Wendy , Jennifer, Gregory and the murders. I can accept that a deranged Gregory thought that J was his son (Joshua), but why does Wendy name the bear from the house Joshua? Does the adult at the house kill all the children at the orphanage except Jennifer out of derangement or anger that Jennifer is now there? Why did he kidnap/kill children/peas beforehand?

Martha's letter at the game's end confuses me. Martha is concerned that a huge adult living there may be klling children and that Wendy is connected to him. The police letter does not make sense in two ways: it states that Gregory has a huge son living there. How can this be so? Isn`t Gregory the big guy? Maybe Wendy goes to the house and dresses as Joshua to influence the big guy to do her bidding, but why/how is Wendy connected to the murders, and WHY, AFTER THE POLICE FIND A LARGE MAN IN THE HOUSE, NO MATTER WHAT HIS NAME, DO THEY DISMISS THE MATTTER? I do have views as to what has happened in other parts of the game ( ending ) , but ths business puzzles me. SD

Opening Movie: I'm not going to go over ever detail in the game that I don`t understand, but I`ll try to include everything I think is important. Two things struck me in the opening film that did not occur in the game and caused me to replay it several times. One was that in the opening, J hunts Gregory with a gun. The gun does not serve any purpose in the game as it stands, so was this game left unfinished? Note that in the airship the huge middle section in the Staircase "E" area cannot be reached though the map shows a plank the game locale will not let J continue. Note in the film Brown grabs a set of keys , this is not in the game. I was sure that the keys were to the back doors of the orphanage and that J would battle Imps in the yard to allow her to continue. Add to these inexplicable images the uselessness of the stick of justice (obtained from finding the king and queen coins), the sign on lift number 13 that generator 2 may go out, the red writing on the wall of one of the basement cells that can`t be read , the unexplained symbols, the lack of any tie in between the playroom at the Gingerbread house and the playroom at the orphanage, the missing page in Meg`s notebook that appears to have information about the imps, the lack of explanation about the two chairs, the fact that J cannot pick up what appears to be a wreath/collar and boarding pass in the secret room(WHAT'S THAT ABOUT?), the fact that she finds these items again in the attic at the end of the game and can`t use them...ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS INDICATE TO ME THAT THE GAME WAS RELEASED UNFINISHED, it is a mess of unresolved problems.

[PrincessJennifer]

I combined all your posts into one and am currently working on making them readable. Then, I will answer your questions.^^

[PrincessJennifer]

Now, onto your questions. One important thing you seem to be missing is symbolism. That plays a heavy part in the game and will help to answer many of your questions. Another thing, is that Jennifer's memories are all jumbled up in her subconscious, as there is much she does not remember.


Wendy and Jennifer-Actually, no, they did not know eachother prior to the accident. The "Princess of the Red Rose" of the book symbolizes a doll Jennifer owned-the same doll that is used to represent the leader of the Aristocrats until she remembers that it's Wendy. This mix-up likely happens because the leader of the Aristocrats shares the same name as the doll she owned as a kid and because she does not remember it was her friend Wendy who was responsible for most of the suffering she went though. However, you are right about her losing her memories after the accident as well.

Wendy-Wendy did, depending on how you look at it, rescue Jennifer from the Gingerbread House. Looking back, it might have been better for everyone if she had just left her there. She is portrayed as sweet and shy because that is how she originally was and how Jennifer remembers her, before she regains her memories of the truth. Wendy's downfall was her own jealousy. She didn't want any of the orphans to take her place as Jennifer's close friend, so she arranged it so they were mean to her. And when Brown came along, Jennifer stopped meeting with her and spent lots of time with him. Upset at having been replace by a dog, she made things worse for Jennifer and did many other awful things as well, which I will elaborate on in other sections.

Joshua-Yes, he is Gregory's dead son. A lot of details about his death are sketchy, but it seems to be that he died of an illness, causing his father to go slightly insane and start drinking heavily. The clothes in the bed were likely his originally, but after Gregory saved Jennifer, he believed the girl to be his son and had her wear them. Later, after Brown enters the picture, a jealous Wendy dons them in secret to manipulate Gregory into becoming her "Stray Dog" by pretending to be the dead son he longs for. The fact that she wears these clothes as she taunts Jennifer throughout the game is a result of the fact that Jennifer cannot still remember the significance of those clothes. When Wendy met Jennifer through the window of the ?Gingerbread House, she believed his name to be Joshua, which is why she gave that name to the bear later.

Betrayal-Jennifer's heart aches as she goes the Gingerbread House because she remembers how she betrayed Gregory. She is referring to her leaving with Wendy. The man had saved her and taken her in, caring for her like a loving father for months. She left him alone to his insanity after all he did for her, which would ultimately lead to the tragedy at the orphanage. It was her guilt that was eating at her.

Orphanage Massacre-At this point, Gregory was completely insane, having been beaten and abused and manipulated by Wendy for months, as she was pretending to be his dead son. Wendy brought her "Stray Dog" to the orphanage, and people debate whether it was her intention to get revenge, kill, or just frighten the kids after her humiliation and fall as Princess. Possibly, she just wanted to frighten them, but they started teasing her, leading to Gregory "protecting" her. I personally believe, due to what Jennifer remembers, that she at least partly instructed him to kill them. Maybe as a result of the other kids bullying her. Thus, his killing of them was likely not personal, and he regains his sanity near the end, which is why he takes his own life. It is believed he killed everyone currently living there but Jennifer, but there is really no way for us to be sure aside from those whose clothes we see.

The Police and Martha's Letter-Martha sent letters we never saw, but it can be assumed they were about Gregory's strange behaviour and the boy in his presence(Wendy in disguise, though she was unaware of this). Though there was no proof, this led her to become suspicious and suspect he was behind the disappearances. Her letters to the police were ignored by them for the most part, which is why Jennifer comments that if they had taken the issue seriously, the tragedy might have been prevented. They did not believe the boy to be a kidnapped kid, since Gregory was known to have a son. They never investigated. There was also nothing in the letter about a "big" person. Gregory was big and living in the forest, but that alone is not a crime, so why would they arrest him?

Disappearances-This is a matter of much debate. Go to the "Characters" section and read through the thread titled something like "Gregory-Innocent or Not?". I personally believe he had nothing to do with the kids who went missing.

Opening-We have a topic about this, but the opening was released before the game was completed. Like many intros, it is no neccessarily showing what happes in the game, but hints at things, like how Brown will aid Jennifer and and Meg killing the Bird of Happiness. But due to it being released before the game was completed, it naturally has some inaccuracies. Here are some things about your notes regarding it:

-Parts of the airship that are later unaccessable can in fact be accessed at other points during the game, though this is not always neccessary, so you may miss it.

-Jennifer is not stalking Gregory. She is merely carrying the gun as a weapon for protections.

-The gun is in fact in the game. See a FAQ or post in the section here for that stuff as to how to acquire it.

-The keys are what I said above; just an example of how Brown helps Jennifer find stuff.

Other Stuff-For the small stuff you mentioned:

-The Stick of Justice is a weapon, isn't it? Either that, or it's used to trade for something else.

-The sign about the generator is a note for something that happens later on in the game, kind of like foreshadowing.

-Can't really comment on the red writing. It's just there.

-The calender symbols seems to be in regards to the weather, as Gregory is a farmer, and they generally match what we read in his diary.

-There is no tie between the two "playrooms". Why would there be? They are two unrelated places.

-The missing page of Meg's notebook is available through hack, and I intend to post the pic here at some point.

-You mean the chairs in the last storybook? They are to symbolize Jennifer and Wendy's relationship. The two girls are tied to the chairs, bound by their friendship and promise, then a dog shows up and one breaks free, leaving her friend tied up and alone.

-Why is it important that Jennifer cannot/does not pick up these objects? They are not relevant.

[PrincessJennifer]

Did that all help? Most people here agree that it does seem on some aspects that the game teeters between two different truths, like those parts weren't fully thought through or evidence of something they later changed was left in.

[aaronm]

@princessj

"A lot of details about his death are sketchy, but it seems to be that he died of an illness"

On the wall of Joshuas room there is a news clipping that talks about a missing airship in 1929, I figured Gregory put it there as a momento or was saving articles about the dissaperance, Jen could have put it there, regarding her own dissapearence, I've heard that they were supposed to be on the same airship or something? ( Not saying I think that really, but thought I'd throw that out there) anyway, it's something to ponder I guess

[neongen]

Major problems for me with your explanations : where is the fact that Jennifer had a doll at any time she regarded as a "princess" stated or indicatedin the game? The police letter states that Gregory`s son fits the description of the person mentioned in Martha`s letter seen with Wendy ( which was big person ) The fact that you dismiss the gun and keys in the movie so easily is shocking. The gun as is used in the game is worthless ( should be major weapon, hard to get ) same is true for stick of justice. Playroom in Gingerbread house not easy to access , game states that there is a tie in with playroom and something to do with the airship crash. The fact that you blow off the symbols as useless when , again the game states that the 1st floor bathroom is important, yet turns out to be useless is strange to me. Per your views the game is cluttered with useless clues and items, but that`s no big deal. Please fill in why a doll is the Princess of the book, where`s the proof of this? Was it ever possible to get into the middle Staircase E section, when ? did you do it. The fact that Meg`s mssing page maybe can be gotten somewhere not in the game really argues that ROR was released unfinished ( As was Martian Gothic and probbly Obscure, both good games ) SD

[neongen]

On reflection I think that I see what you mean about Martha`s letter. The Police letter which states that a person described in Martha`s letter was seen with Gregory and matched the description given by Martha referred to Wendy , BUT Wendy would have been dressed as a girl at the orphanage and a boy at the Gingerbread house so why would the ploice think Wendy (girl) was Joshua (dressed in boy`s clothes) The poice have to realize that Martha knows who`s at the orphanage and how could they see a boy at the house and think he was the person seen by Martha and thought to be Wendy. There is a difference between a boy and a girl. Does not seem to make sense. SD

[PrincessJennifer]

-The "doll" is shown in the storybook and in the cutscenes, representing Wendy until Jennifer properly remembers and puts each back in their respective roles.

-You are getting confused. Martha's letter that you actually get to read mentions seeing Wendy with Gregory. It is implied that she sent other letters, which likely were about what I said in my explanations, leading the police to assume the male child was Joshua.

-As I said, the opening is not meant to be overly significant. You've played Haunting Ground, yes? In the intro, you see Fiona walking through the castle in that sheet. In reality, she's only in that sheet for a little while and never actually goes through the castle in it. It's just a scene meant to foreshadow the game slightly. Brown getting the keys foreshadows how Brown helps her get items, while the gun shows her trying to protect herself, as she had a weapon through most of the game. Also, the stick is a weapon, and there are two guns in the game.

-The Gingerbread House playroom has no connection to the airship. Seeing a toy airship on the floor just affects Jennifer's forgotten memories. And what does that have to do with the orphanage playroom?

-Where is there any message about the bathroom being important? I do not recally such a message?

-The symbols on Gregory's calender are nothing more than markings of the weather. You are looking far too much into it.

-I'm not sure which place in the airship is E or that it is neccessarily a place you can access. I am just telling you there are many places that become available later.

[neongen]

First, thanks for the information about the doll being in the Little Princess book, I missed that. So now I accept that Jennifer did not know Wendy before the Crash. This does not affect my other views tho Yes, I`ve played Haunting Ground the sheet is a mmod piece and if it were not for the many problems with ROR I could accept Brown grabbing the key ring with several keys as just representational, but there are those two back doors that can`t be opened at the orphange. I remember ( a page in a book ? ) that shows the playroom and as I recall an indication that there`s something there of importance. I remember very clearly that at least twice ( I went thu the game five times ) there was a written message (caption ) that told Jennifer to go to the 1F Bathroom , this occurs in the airship, if you don`t recall this something is wrong. The first time I played the game there was a time that J could not open a door to pass thru one of the engine maintence areas to get to the cargo area. She had to climb down the ladder on the outside of the ship to scare away an imp in the engine housing and then the door to the cargo area opened. Did you ever get this scenario? You write that the markings on the calender are meaningless. These symbols are on the stall doors and floor of the bathroom at the orphanage. What is the explanation for this ? You write that other of Martha`s letters somehow explain why a boy is taken to be the same chid as a girl ! How so ? AS for "E" (can`t believe you don`t realize this), it is the massive pathway to the right of the elevator at section 13. There is clearly a plank on the map that should allow J to cross to it , but in the game the plank is not there and J is stopped. This is crucial as I suspect that there should be important items in this area. The stick is not only a weapon but the game says that it gives J the courage to do what`s right. Now whether she has it or not the game ends the same way , this item should allow J to do things crucial to the ending she can`t do without it..does not make a bit of sense . Thanks for the information bout the doll being in the book, but there are many questions about the problems I`ve found with the games story line that you have not addressed or just glossed over as not important. The doll notwithstanding we see this game very differently. I`m not "seeing or reading too much into it " and yes , I`ve played many games in which items/game areas were introduced but not used. Haunting Ground and Castlevania had pleanty of useless pickups, but not anywhere near the magnitude of ROR.

[neongen]

There are also games that have large areas that are there , but not used ( SH 2 ), are indicated on a map ,but are empty (Obscure) , there are games that were released unfinished ( Martian Gothic ) or seemingly altered/shortened (Obscure) , but ROR is in a class by itself . Now all of the things about this game that don`t make sense and/or are left unexplained cannot be rationalized by the fact that it is phantasmagorical. SH 2 is just as much in the same category , but it really explained everything of importance. The greatest hits version even included a separate game to flesh out the problematic Maria character. No disrepect intended , but you seem to be an apologist for ROR. No matter how the game can be seen , no matter how one interperts the ending the developers did a terrible job. I can accept that the (active) radio in the airship is symbolic of the connection of the crash of the airship and the events at the orphanage, but this is not good game design. Another , I believe, important thing I remember from the first time I played the game ( at least then , maybe other times thru as well ) was that early in the game the game tells Jennifer that the game is full of lies so anything is possible. I think that I now understand (possibly) some of the events that lead up to the Stray Dog battles. The writing on the blackboard about Wendy telling lies was about Wendy lying to the group about the danger of Stray Dog , then she returns with Stray Dog to have him kill the children I missed seeing the children`s clothes. I have also rethought the reappearance of Brown at the end of the game. ( I`ll have to correct my post at Gamefaq). Brown can reappear in the game because J has stood up to the club, it is symbolic of rebirth ( not only of her memory of him ) , but also of the new chance at a real life for Brown he will have when she returns to the orphanage to undo the past.Remember Brown was only a year old when he was sacraficed by her . I`m coming to understand ROR better, but there are still gaping holes in it.Why is it so important to let Gregory kill himself/ I still can`t fin th Princess of the Rose info on the site , can you point it out ? SD

[PrincessJennifer]

Please heed my request to make your posts easier to read.-.-;


I'm not sure what doors you speak of, as nearly all the orphanage doors are openable. I believe there is only one that never opens. That scene in the opening has nothing to do with it.

The Stick of Justice is a weapon, nothing more. You are trying to read too much into it. The game has lots of extra weapons you can get.

There is nothing anywhere indicating any of the playrooms in the game are important.

And I still do not recall anything that specifically directs Jennifer to any bathroom. Even if there were, it was likely not something to do with anything more than finding a clue to further the game, not symbols.

The symbols on the calender are not the same as the ones in the orphanage. They are weather markings-a rain cloud, a sun, and so on.

I already answered you about the letter. We are told that Martha sent other letters, likely about seeing Gregory in the company of a little boy. This little boy was actually Wendy in disguise, but she was not aware of this.

Jennifer is not actually going back in time-she cannot change anything. Brown is and will remain dead. He is by her side because she is remembering the events leading up to his death and the orphanage massacre.

Gregory has to kill himself for Jennifer to accept her past. By giving in to her fear and killing him, she is running away from the truth. Instead, she faced her fears and handed the gun over to him, witnessing his suicide for a second time.


And once again, you are not telling me what questions I have not answered. I have given you explanation after explanation.-.-;

[neongen]

There are two unopened doors at the orphanage at the end , one in the washroom one near the room that has the clothes. I`ve noted the inaccessible area at starway E , I noted that the stick of Justice gives J the courage to to the right thing, you blow off all these. I`ve just put up a long series of posts at the Rule of Rose Mysteries site (reference Sept. 29, 2007 Bad vs.Good endings) about the ending that point out several reasons why Brown will be saved and that the easy/accepted view that J will just retain her memory of Brown is refuted by everything J says and does at the Bus Stop and shed. Note her cheerful attitude, tieing up of Brown, statements that, she has things yet to do ( at the orphanage locale), her remark ( twice) wait for me Brown, and her vow to protect him forever. The view that she is just refering to his memory and will no longer see him is not supported by any of this, the reality that she will now enter an alternate real world time line beginning January 1930 with a live Brown is. I`ve gone into more detail at the ROR mysteries site. You can read my posts there and respond here or not, your choice SD

[PrincessJennifer]

The washroom door just leads outside. There is no point for it to open at that point. Only significant rooms were open at that time.

I told you. The Stick of Justice is JUST A WEAPON. There is nothing special about it. It's one of many extra weapons included in the game. Silent Hill 3 has a light saber as an extra weapon, doesn't mean it's related to Star Wars.

And for the millionth time-Brown is dead. This game is about symbolism. She has not been transported back to the past.