bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Nov 28, 2006 18:29:25 GMT -5
Okay, here's the question to y'all. How the heck did the shy, sickly Wendy end up at the top of the heap? I mean, Diana does not strike me as someone who would let Wendy get up top unless she was biding her time or she was happy with a puppet while she ran things from behind the scenes. But while I'm sure Diana did not like Jennifer, it seems pretty reasonable to believe it was Wendy that turned people against Jennifer. Plus, Diana's got that little Himmeler Meg on her side, and with the boys and Eleanor sitting out, that leaves only Amanda to be on Wendy's side (though I do not believe Amanda was a Wendy booster), and I'm sure we can all agree that a Diana/Meg pair is stronger than a Wendy/Amanda pair (at least in the confines of the orphanage).
I would also like to question and note the story "Stray Dog." In the story, a bedridden girl tells lies of Stray Dog until that night happened. Now, from the game proper, it seems as though Jennifer did not really know about Gregory being the Stray Dog. Also, since it was Wendy that was the chronically sick, I would assume that it was her telling lies about Stray Dog coming. So, here's the question. How did someone who was ignored become the Princess of the Rose?
So, here's my belief on some of the things I mentioned. I believe Wendy was a 'lame duck' princess, only in that position because Diana did not feel the need to take over. And since Diana was the only one strong enough to take over, none of the other girls would dare to attempt to take the position. I do believe that Wendy gave the order to be mean to Jennifer (I don't know where I read that) but it would not surprise me if the bullying was just as much as people did not like Jennifer as much as it was Wendy's mandate. I believe there is some proof in the theory that Wendy was a weak princess in that when Jennifer beat her down that none of the girls appeared to care (in fact Diana looked on with disdain). The big question, however, is how did Wendy end up at the top, and how did Wendy take the fact that the kids were ignoring her lies?
And just to give more to think about, if Wendy did run back one day warning about Stray Dog coming for real, how did Jennifer's memory end up so different? Because if her memory she was being risen up to Princess of the Rose, and then someone saw Wendy and then everyone just dumped their new princess to run outside (even stone-cold Eleanor). Now I know Jennifer's memory is a Freudian banquet, but still, the clash between 'Stray Dog' and Jennifer's memory is pretty big.
Okay, people. Start burning brain cells and get me an answer (or tear apart mine)!
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jackdyce
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Everlasting Happiness is a Joke
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Post by jackdyce on Nov 29, 2006 10:23:12 GMT -5
I don't think Wendy was really ever shy or sick. She seemed to have a pretty firm hold over the other girls before Jennifer stood up to her. The surprised reaction you see from the others after Jennifer has her outburst leads me to believe that nobody had ever stood up to Wendy before that point. That's why they asked Jennifer to become the next Princess of the Rose, because she was brave enough to do what they were not brave enough to do.
Wendy had maintained her leadership with the Stray Dog and Imp lies. Since Hoffman backed her up on the Imp lies to get the kids to do their chores, all the kids listened to Wendy. When Jennifer declared her a liar, and showed she was not "all powerful," the girls stopped believing the Stray Dog lie. Wendy immediately wanted revenge, so she went out and trained Gregory to act like a scary dog so that she could prove to all the girls that she was not lying, and thus regain her control over them.
I think Jennifer had blocked out Wendy's memory more than the others. When she first meets Wendy, Jennifer's memory is so faded that Wendy appears sick and fragile. As the game goes on, and Jennifer's memory returns to her, Wendy becomes stronger and the illness goes away.
Finally, Jennifer was not asked to become the Princess on the same day that Wendy returned with Stray Dog. This was just her memories running together. You have to ignore the dates of the chapters - the game pretty much states that the events did not necessarily occur in the months that the chapters are dated. For example, the chapter that shows Jennifer's "escape" from Gregory's house is June, 1929. The letters you see in the January chapter, however, prove that Jennifer did not meet Wendy until November, 1929.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Nov 29, 2006 13:22:50 GMT -5
Okay, I'll really need to go back and check dates, because I'm not sure Wendy and Jennifer only knew each other in Nov. I'm sure I've seen a letter at least in Aug. But anyways, I'll leave that as that until I check. As for Wendy being sick, I believe she was. This is because I believe the picture books give the clearest idea of what really happened. In 'Stray Dog' the girl was bedridden. If you look at all the picture books, they really give a lot of the whole story, especially 'The Little Princess.' Hell, it shows everything that happened to Jennifer.
Also, Jennifer never struck me as the kind of girl who would ever call out Wendy like that in front of everyone. From the letters J to W, she seemed to really care about Wendy, and even appeared to be in shock and really saddened that Brown so upset Wendy.
Anyways, I like the idea that Jennifer became Princess because no one was brave enough (though Diana, even through Jen's messed up mind, seemed stronger than that), as well as Wendy's revenge plot (though I wonder how she decided that Greg was pliable enough to be Stray Dog).
(Annotation to my post)
Okay, I checked the dates. The first letter between Wendy and Jen was dated Nov 16, and from its context it was in 1929. But, even if you don't believe me on that, there is a Mar 25. So they knew each other for a year before Stray Dog attacks. And in Mar 25 Wendy reminds Jen about their oath, so that happened a while ago. Here's the important letters to this thread.
Month Day (assumed year)
Nov 16 (1929) Jen is (still) Joshua
Mar 20 (1930) Jen moves into Rose Garden
Mar 25 (1930) Wendy reminds Jen of her oath
July 25 (1930) Wendy is relieved Jen is well again
I added in the last date because that is interesting. From that letter it sounds as if it was Jen that was the bedridden girl. So if that's true, then she's the girl who warned about Stray Dog. That actually makes some sense, since that would mean Jen is worried about Wendy's 'dog' and is warning the others. That makes a bit more sense to me because I find it hard to believe Jen calling out Wendy a liar to all the other girls. If this reverse scenario is true, then that means Jen was worried and warned the other girls and was ignored, but still never called out Wendy as the threat/liar/whatever. This I believe fits more in with Jen's character.
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jackdyce
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Everlasting Happiness is a Joke
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Post by jackdyce on Nov 30, 2006 13:53:51 GMT -5
1) The game makes it pretty clear they met in November of 1929. In that November 16 letter, Jennifer introduces herself to Wendy. So even if they saw each other before then, they weren't properly acquainted until November. I brought that up only to point out that the game has them leaving Gregory's house in June of 1929, before they met, so you cannot rely on the game's dates to explain when all the events happened.
2) Jennifer called out Wendy - that scene, where Jennifer beat up Wendy, is one of the few that you can trust because all of the imaginary things had disappeared. Jennifer attacked Wendy and called her a liar because the girls killed Brown under Wendy's deception. Basically, Jennifer was so pissed off that she was no longer scared of Wendy, and was the first girl to call Wendy out on her lies.
3) Jennifer could have been the bedridden one, but the game is pretty clear that Wendy was the one who made up the Stray Dog lie. The game confirms that fact several time, the most obvious one being when Martha writes that she sees Wendy training Gregory as a dog.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Nov 30, 2006 17:19:14 GMT -5
As for relying on dates, I trust the letters, though I do understand the idea that Jen-Joshua was still with Gregory in June 1930. I think that Jen arrived at Rose Garden in March 1930 like the letter said, but she went back and forth up until June or whenever. Jen strikes me as someone who would feel sorry enough for Gregory to go back now and then (which would also explain why someone complained about Jen playing with a mop wig, sorry, but I don't remember where that was).
I don't believe Jen jumping Wendy was when the children finally realized that Wendy was lying about Stray Dog, especially since I remember Jen calling all of the girls liars and saying she hated each of them. She would not also call them liars on the account of Stray Dog.
I don't think Martha seeing Wendy and Stray Dog means Wendy made up the story at all (see Is Martha A Witch, Nosy Neighbor, Or Kind Maid? thread for more on that part of the story). I believe Wendy definitely brought the story to life (i.e. calling Gregory Stray Dog) but I believe it entirely possible it was Jen who warned everyone about it. I do not see anything in Jen's nature that would make me believe she would pull a story like that completely out of thin air.
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jackdyce
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Everlasting Happiness is a Joke
Posts: 163
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Post by jackdyce on Dec 1, 2006 13:57:48 GMT -5
Because Wendy made up the story. And then when everyone stopped believing it, she decided to "make it" true.
And the June chapter took place in 1929, not 1930. It was the only chapter to not take place in 1930.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 1, 2006 16:49:41 GMT -5
Because Wendy made up the story. And then when everyone stopped believing it, she decided to "make it" true. And the June chapter took place in 1929, not 1930. It was the only chapter to not take place in 1930. Are you talking about the chapter in the game (like the clover field chapter (the first time Jen was in the airship) was April 1930)? Because I could've sworn all the chapters listed as 1930.
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Post by cellerikun on Dec 1, 2006 18:33:16 GMT -5
If I had to make a guess, Wendy being Princess probably came about because she looked and acted most princess-like of all the girls, sickly or otherwise; after all, Clara spends most of her time in the sickroom and she's still the prettiest. Wendy shows that she is capable of being sweet and kind, but also must have had quite a personality to able to think up things like Stray Dog and make it stick.
So I figure Wendy becomes princess because she is pretty and sweet, and gets used to the position; she loves attention and craves it because she's lonely, which is why every month in the game, she demands the sacrifice of something her subordinates loved because it distracted them from paying attention to her-- Olivia's butterfly, Eleanor's bird, Diana's mermaid, Jennifer's dog, etc.
Then when Wendy got sick, she lost her throne because she was sick in bed, and she made up the Stray Dog lie for attention. When it was found to be a lie, Wendy went out and trained Gregory to become Stray Dog so that it would be true and she could get revenge (and be paid attention to).
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Post by Princess Eleanor on Dec 1, 2006 21:46:05 GMT -5
Because Wendy made up the story. And then when everyone stopped believing it, she decided to "make it" true. And the June chapter took place in 1929, not 1930. It was the only chapter to not take place in 1930. Are you talking about the chapter in the game (like the clover field chapter (the first time Jen was in the airship) was April 1930)? Because I could've sworn all the chapters listed as 1930. Same.....I thought all the chapters were listed as 1930's!?
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Post by PrinceJoshua on Dec 2, 2006 0:05:35 GMT -5
Were they? I forget.
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Post by domriver on Dec 2, 2006 18:15:19 GMT -5
Wasn't Wendy the one who started this whole Princess Rose deal?
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Post by spookythings on Dec 2, 2006 18:19:02 GMT -5
^^ my thoughts exactly, dom. i thought since she created it, she got first dibs on position of her choice.
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jackdyce
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Everlasting Happiness is a Joke
Posts: 163
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Post by jackdyce on Dec 2, 2006 22:10:56 GMT -5
March, April, May, July, August, September, October, November, December, and January all take place in 1930. (It's debatable whether Jennifer was at the orphanage in January of 1930, though.) There is no February chapter.
The June chapter is set in 1929, two months before Jennifer met Wendy. It's possible, though, that the airship crash happened in June of 1929.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 2, 2006 22:59:40 GMT -5
March, April, May, July, August, September, October, November, December, and January all take place in 1930. (It's debatable whether Jennifer was at the orphanage in January of 1930, though.) There is no February chapter. The June chapter is set in 1929, two months before Jennifer met Wendy. It's possible, though, that the airship crash happened in June of 1929. I do understand how the events of the in-game July 1930 chapter might have actually happened in 1929 because if I remember one of Wendy's letters in Nov 1929 referenced their promise. But if that's the case, those chapter dates suck.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 3, 2006 21:25:55 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that Wendy is the bedridden girl. Proof is the stack of letters from J to W next to the sick room bed and the rabbit cage there. Not that it matters (I think this topic was over for a while).
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