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Post by Dinah on Oct 11, 2007 13:23:03 GMT -5
I don't know if I believe that the orphans killed them, I honestly think I would believe that Gregory had killed them before I would believe that the orphans did it. Though I do believe that they did something terrible to run them off.
Well wait now that I think about it I could see the Orphans doing something to try to scare them off and killing them unintentionally.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 11, 2007 14:05:30 GMT -5
But unintentionally killing three people? Separately?
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Post by Dinah on Oct 11, 2007 14:19:47 GMT -5
Well, Hoffman actually left, I do believe that, but Martha and Clara it's possible. They could have been trying to run them off and gotten a little to brutal, dropped something on them from the staircase, shoved them down the stairs, there are numerous methods of death that could be accidental. I don't believe the Orphans were malicious. Or perhaps Martha managed to get out, but something happened to Clara? or the other way around?
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 12, 2007 16:25:55 GMT -5
Jennifer would know if something like that had happened. We see her memories of both Clara and Martha being tormented, so it's most likely that they simply got sick of dealing with it and left.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 12, 2007 20:55:04 GMT -5
Jennifer's memories are an allegory at the most and censored at the least. Clara, Martha, and Hoffman just leaving doesn't fit the modus operandi of the game. Jennifer wouldn't have forgotten all of her memories of the Orphanage if it had all been candy and roses.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 12, 2007 22:42:39 GMT -5
No one said all of it was, but there were good memories too. Three adults abandoning the children and basically giving them complete freedom is a horror on its own, as that's what partly caused things to get as bad as they did. Adults, for the most part, were at fault for the orphanage massacre. Only Gregory had any kind of innocence, since he showed true kindness to Jennifer. He may have massacred the orphans, but this was after going through the trauma of losing his son twice, then being tortured and manipulated for months afterwards by Wendy-he was very unstable emotionally.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 12, 2007 22:46:46 GMT -5
But there is still no concrete evidence that Hoffman, Clara and Martha just left. Jennifer's memories are completely unreliable and must be taken with a grain of salt.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 12, 2007 22:48:52 GMT -5
That's not true when we learn those facts. The true final chapter of the game takes place after she completely remembers everything as it was. Her memories are no longer manipulated-she sees everything clearly.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 12, 2007 22:56:20 GMT -5
But she's not remembering anything that actually happened in the final chapter. She neglects to put any of the other orphans other than Wendy in that chapter. Also, Gregory is sane in the final chapter, which was not the case in her real life.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 12, 2007 23:03:11 GMT -5
The final chapter is set in her dream and not in reality, but her memories have completely cleared at this time. She is able to recall the truth behind many of the incidents that occured. Gregory, Wendy, and Brown were the only people who ever truly cared for her-the only people she had ever cared for. The other orphans can be heard but not seen. Why? Because they existed. Whether she liked them or hated them, they are a presence in her life that she cannot deny now that her memories have returned. She could push them out of her main memory, but they are still there, if only a little.
And Gregory was exactly what he was in real life-a man who wrote stories and loved his son more than anything in the world. Sane or not, that is what he was until the day he died.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 12, 2007 23:06:11 GMT -5
Gregory did love his son. But he was insane after Joshua's death.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 12, 2007 23:10:07 GMT -5
That's irrelevant though. Sane or not, she saw him as what he was at heart-a man who deeply loved his son and wrote stories. Just as she does not see Wendy as the crazy girl who was responsible for the orphanage massacre, but as her clingly-but-beloved friend. And Brown is still that little puppy who was always so happy to see her. She had faced and accepted the tragedies that had surrounded those three, but she couldn't just forget them. They meant a lot to her, so she kept them close to her heart, but seperate from eachother. Because as we learned in the game, Wendy+anyone does not mix.
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Post by cmwilso3 on Oct 12, 2007 23:15:16 GMT -5
True. But back to the point of the thread. I was reading the GameScript for the final chapter. Jennifer says,"One day, Mr. Hoffman suddenly disappeared. Clara and Miss martha soon followed, leaving me and the other orphans alone…" If Hoffman disappeared (and it is implied here that whatever happened to Hoffman also happened to Clara and Martha), then they must have disappeared too. Not necessarily left. I think that Jennifer probably would have said, "Mr. Hoffman left suddenly" instead if that had been the case.
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Post by tooky on Oct 16, 2007 18:23:14 GMT -5
maybe the whole mermaid princess thing with the ropes and clara meant that clara commited suicide by hanging herself from her feet or by the neck, and hoffman was there on the scene becouse clara might have wanted him there becouse she liked him so much (liked 2 impress him) he might have been an ilousion becouse when jennifer looked trough the door hoffman was there but when she went in he wasnt... and maybe jennifer saw claras dead hung body and wanted to try 2 fiorget about it but couldnt entirely. and thats how she disapered ,aybe jenn is the only one who found her but never told.
and martha might have actually fled after her missing.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Oct 19, 2007 21:58:44 GMT -5
Hoffman left before Clara and Martha, so he did not do anything to either of them. And we learn from the diary that Hoffman could no longer take raising the children since Jennifer came along and had decided to abandon them. That scene in the bed with the mermaid was Hoffman carrying Clara to bed, which Jennifer saw and misunderstood.
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