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Post by julia on Dec 2, 2006 7:53:16 GMT -5
Seems like a lot of survival horror games have perverts or strange men in general.
Clock Tower for PS had Harris who had a crush on Jennifer. Clock Tower 3 had the dark man Haunting ground has Ricardo (We all know what happens to Fiona in the D ending)
and Rule of rose has Hoffman or Gregory.
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Post by Princess Eleanor on Dec 2, 2006 8:32:54 GMT -5
Im near the end of haughting ground....so i dont kno yet!
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Post by Carmichan on Dec 2, 2006 12:54:56 GMT -5
Actually, I went and researched the history of airships on wikipedia, and Cardington is in fact a real place. It also was the site that built the airship R-101 which, incidentally, crashed around 1930 on its maiden voyage to India. Also, in 1937, a very famous airship accident took place (Hindenburg). I think this might have caused Jennifer's memories to begin to resurface, considering she looked about 12 in the ending Funeral cutscene, which would make her 19 in 1937. Quoted from wikipedia: "Britain suffered its own airship tragedy in 1930 when R-101, a ship far advanced for its time but rushed to completion and sent on a trip to India before she was ready, crashed in France with the loss of 48 out of 54 aboard on 5 October. Because of the bad publicity surrounding the crash, the Air Ministry grounded the competing R100 in 1930 and sold it for scrap in 1931. This was despite the fact that the differently-designed R100 had completed a successful transatlantic maiden flight. The most spectacular and widely remembered airship accident, however, is the burning of the Hindenburg on 6 May 1937, which caused public faith in airships to evaporate in favour of faster, more cost-efficient (albeit less energy-efficient) airplanes. Of the 97 people on board, there were 36 deaths: 13 passengers, 22 aircrew, and one American ground-crewman. Much controversy persists as to the cause(s) of the accident." To stay on topic, I still can't seem to believe Hoffman is a pedophile. Jennifer just seemed to interpret Hoffman as worse than he really was in my opinion.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 2, 2006 22:50:57 GMT -5
Well, regardless whether or not Hoffman 'touched' Clara, even with Jen's screwy memory, she did remember a marked change in Clara's mood when she spoke to Hoffman and Martha. Even with Jen's screwy mind, I don't think she would mess up scary with, say happy.
As for stuff being real, go to the RoR Atlus site. The creators mentioned they specifically went for a real look and feel, as in pick a real place so you can really feel this happened (as opposed to Raccoon City in RE or Ivalice in Final Fantasy). Kind of like what Shadow Hearts did with using real cities like Shanghai, London, but even more so.
Kudos to Carmichan for looking up this stuff (though wiki you should take with a grain of salt)
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Post by julia on Dec 3, 2006 2:30:13 GMT -5
Im near the end of haughting ground....so i dont kno yet! The D ending is my favorite, but I'd recommend trying to get it the second play through.
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Post by spookythings on Dec 3, 2006 5:13:16 GMT -5
i saw that ending on youtube. yowza.
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i can see why people would think hoffman wasn't molesting clara, especially considering our most compelling piece of evidence is an interaction between hoffman and, uh, diana, but i still think he was for all the reasons i've stated before. its been said that jennifer's memories were sanitized and that not everything we saw was the actual truth, thanks to jennifer's going 'round the bend, which could work in team he-did-it's favour just as well as it works in team kept-it-in-his-pants', re: hoffman and clara in the locked room.
obviously the game can't flat out show us scenes of sexual relations between a grown man and young girl, nor would i be in any hurry to see them, but as with jennifer remembering only the clothes of her friends after the massacre, maybe the memory of hoffman and clara in the room was toned down as well.
-- DRAMATIC REENACTMENT --
jennifer, played by jessica biel who is wearing a rediculous version of jennifer's outfit which has somehow become a bra and a mini skirt because its the only way i could get you in the theatre, walks in to find clara (lindsay lohan, who wandered in drunk and wouldn't leave) idly making a bed. or not making it. basically, shes just standing there looking busy.
jennifer: clara, everyone here is ignoring me and throwing garbage at me! why is this happening?
clara: *says nothing, but seems relatively serene*
jennifer: *gives up and turns to leave when suddenly, in walks hoffman, played by tom cruise*
hoffman: clara, come into this room with me. as you can see, jennifer, i have said nothing suspicious, for instance CLARA COME INTO THIS ROOM WITH ME SO I CAN MURDER YOU WITH AN AXE, so do not be alarmed.
clara: *becomes visibly distressed, and her shoulders slump as she slowly shuffles into the room with hoffman, who by the way, has said nothing suspicious*
hoffman: *shuts and locks the door*
-- END DRAMATIC REENACTMENT --
now, ladies and gentlemen, i ask you this: if someone who has been very nice to you, who favours you and fawns on you and writes about you in his diary, asks you to do something as simple as joining them in the other room, how do you react? you almost certainly would not hesitate and drag yourself along as if though you were being led to the guillotine. clara behaved as if though hoffman had just come in and told her to come drink some poison and roll naked through flaming thumb tacks. i know that clara's natural disposition was just as timid as jennifer (who was apparently not timid at all, that little liar), but you can actually see a change in her demeanor when hoffman comes in and summons her.
now, what i was saying about the memory being cleaned up is this:
in lieu of showing us a most uncomfortable rendition of the mattress mambo, we see clara on her hands and knees on the floor, with hoffman hovering over her, talking to her gently. the scene is strangely intimate, and not just because it takes place behind closed and locked doors, but because hoffman has made it clear in his diary that his little clara is very, very dear to him, and clara has made it clear that she does not relish being alone with him - even in his diary where he says she asked if he needed help, you get the impression that she was not alone with him while doing the work, as he had to go find her and was surprised she was still awake.
also, when he speaks to her, he speaks softly, as if though he's afraid of being heard. we know that from the rest of the game, hes got a mouth on him and is constantly yelling at jennifer, snapping at imps, or griping at diana. why should telling clara to clean the floor be any different? afraid he might wake the dust bunnies?
i know that having clara cleaning the floor and hoffman standing/sitting beside her is not exactly a staggering sexual innuendo, but what happened next? we were only allowed to see a few seconds of their rendezvous, who knows what happened afterwards? that scene through the keyhole could not merely have ended with hoffman pointing to a spot on the floor, clara cleaning it, and then nothing. not with the door locked, and not with two characters we see alone together more often than not (especially in the mermaid chapter, where hoffman is leading clara into some far off bedroom where he joins her in bed - that just smacks of jon benet ramsey, whose bedroom was also stationed at a different end of the house from her brother and parents).
and that is something else to think about: sometimes clara was by herself, sometimes hoffman was by himself, but when clara and hoffman are together, there is never any witnesses. two of the three times jennifer sees them is from the keyhole of a locked door.
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i apologize for the rambling way that post went on, my thoughts were going in every different direction. i think i was coherent where it counts, though?
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 3, 2006 8:55:23 GMT -5
Well, the one thing about this topic (like every other topic in RoR) is it is very open to interpretation. I mean, I could argue all sides. For all we know, Clara could just be an incredibly timid girl and is always afraid of the adults in general (after all, other than Jen's so very trustworthy memory, there is never any proof that Clara was scared). Now, that fear could have just been a timidness that Jen misinterpreted. After all, Clara was afraid of Martha as well (according to Jen) but we have not seen anything, either in writing or elsewhere in Jen's memory, of this. Remember, as spooky said, we never see Hoffman and Clara together other than Jen sneaking an eavesdrop on them. Eavesdropping, as we all know, can lead to all sorts of 'lost in translation' scenarios.
Or, Jen's memory could be crystal clear (HAHAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!. . . . sorry, but that's just too funny ;D) in this scenario and Clara has a definite fear of Hoffman. From Clara's reactions and Jen's messed up mermaid, it would lead to the idea that Hoffman did something to Clara. I don't think I need to beat this horse to death anymore as others have done enough.
Since I enjoy arguing both sides, I'll argue that Hoffman is good for now.
Okay, so first off, I think we can all agree to take Jen's memory with a BIG BAG of salt. So I argue that her memory of Clara's fear, as well as Hoffman almost fondling Diana is Jen's exaggeration (I think we can agree Jen exaggerates.) The reason why I believe that Jen's memory is really poor here is all the suggestive scenes Jen was not privy to. With Clara, they all occurred eavesdropping. I believe Clara to be a very timid girl. In the sick room scene, Clara might have spilled something, ran out scared, just out of her own timid nature. So when Hoffman calls her back to clean the spill, Clara might have been afraid to admit it. Hoffman is definitely being nice to her in the room, showing that he is more lenient to her. The other proof in my mind is Hoffman's diary. I do not think Clara would offer to stay in the orphanage regardless of her belief of her 'soiled' self-image. And as I have said before, I do not find Hoffman's diary creepy, but more like a doting parent/grandparent. As for name order, Jen might remember it as favorites, but it might have just been who did really good that day. That could explain why Jen never showed up. And since Clara was always working alone, it would not be fair to call her first since no other kid would recognize it. Plus, since Clara is Hoffman's assistant, there's no need to flaunt her position (after all, she's 16, she doesn't need that kind of browny points over a bunch of 9 year olds).
With Diana, I'm not even sure Jen was there, or if she was she was again eavesdropping, since Hoffman only glanced in her general direction but did not acknowledge her. It's easy to see how Jen could have messed things up. Hoffman might not have been 'fondling' Diana, but just patting her head and touching her shoulder (though I don't think this). Hoffman also did not have that high of an opinion of Diana (since his diary states he thought it was Diana first who killed/hid his koi), so I find it unlikely he was feeling her up. In Jen's memory he might be feeling her up, in reality he might have been getting in her face and squeezing her shoulder hard to hurt and scare her to tell (this I believe). However, Diana knows he won't do anything too harmful (like beat her) so she can just hold out and take off her mask after he leaves.
So Jen took things out of context (with Clara) and put her own strange eroticism with Diana. Jen is, after all, a very unreliable narrator.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Dec 9, 2006 10:47:15 GMT -5
I think it was most likely Jen's youthful mind just twisting innocent scenes. Clara's change of mood when talking to Marth or Hoffman is most likely just because around them she acts more grown up, which many of the orphans seem to think of as scary.
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bucketknight
Bourgeois
Please do not deplore yourself. Even if the world does not forgive, I will forgive you.
Posts: 549
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Post by bucketknight on Dec 9, 2006 17:30:56 GMT -5
I think it was most likely Jen's youthful mind just twisting innocent scenes. Clara's change of mood when talking to Marth or Hoffman is most likely just because around them she acts more grown up, which many of the orphans seem to think of as scary. I don't think Jen would interpret Clara acting more mature as scary, even with her memory. And I don't think Clara would feel overtly scared at Hoffman because she did want to stay at the orphanage. I think I mentioned somewhere that that one scene that Jen saw of Clara going into the sick room and cleaning the floor with Hoffman that that scene Clara might have been upset because she did spill something and didn't want to admit it (like when a teacher's pet makes a mistake). That might have been an isolated incident where Clara was scared just because she did not want to fall out of favor.
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hewie
Poor
"I will show you the fear in a handful of dust..."
Posts: 32
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Post by hewie on Dec 24, 2006 13:53:25 GMT -5
Hoffman is an old perv and a paedophile!
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Post by bloodyrose on Aug 9, 2007 19:52:17 GMT -5
I think it could be both. He could have been a mild molester, but not rapist. Jennifer could also be twisting a minor scene out of proportion, but not completely because there was an element of molestation in the air. So he's sick, but not down right evil. He's a old, dirty-magazine-looking-at perv of a man, but no rapist.
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Post by PrincessJennifer on Aug 9, 2007 20:03:58 GMT -5
I think that it is Jennifer twisting an innocent scene out of proportion.
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Post by aaronm on Feb 3, 2008 21:55:57 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it was taken out of context to some extent, not that he isn't strange, at least by todays standards, but judging by his journal entries he always referred to them in a sterile-way you'd expect of a good teacher/educator, not saying he was, afterall he abandoned them, but in my own mind, and because our heroines shaky memory, my own guess is he was just a strict, difficult and unlikable teacher who became a target of some nasty rumours that forumulated in her mind years later as fact.
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